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	<title>Comments on: When Is a Robin not a Robin?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/</link>
	<description>The Experience of Birding!</description>
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		<title>By: Jerry Friedman</title>
		<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-42998</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdaz.com/blog/?p=1783#comment-42998</guid>
		<description>Update: I asked about this at the Usenet group a href=&quot;http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/7b81c748fc6b51e3#&quot;&gt;alt.usage.english&lt;/a&gt;, and posters named Peter Duncanson and Donna Richoux told me the OED has an older citation and the 1944 &lt;i&gt;Dictionary of American English&lt;/i&gt; has three.  The oldest is from the diary of Samuel Sewall (abolitionist and Salem witch-trial judge), from 1703.  The  DAE would be a good place to look for &quot;fieldfare&quot;, too.  I&#039;m getting the feeling that &quot;robin&quot; was a popular term and nobody was imposing anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Update: I asked about this at the Usenet group a href=&#8221;http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/7b81c748fc6b51e3#&#8221;&gt;alt.usage.english, and posters named Peter Duncanson and Donna Richoux told me the OED has an older citation and the 1944 <i>Dictionary of American English</i> has three.  The oldest is from the diary of Samuel Sewall (abolitionist and Salem witch-trial judge), from 1703.  The  DAE would be a good place to look for &#8220;fieldfare&#8221;, too.  I&#8217;m getting the feeling that &#8220;robin&#8221; was a popular term and nobody was imposing anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Wright</title>
		<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-42997</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdaz.com/blog/?p=1783#comment-42997</guid>
		<description>Northern Rufous-bellied Ouzel it is!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Northern Rufous-bellied Ouzel it is!</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Wright</title>
		<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-42996</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdaz.com/blog/?p=1783#comment-42996</guid>
		<description>From Jerry Friedman:

From what I can see on Google Books, the story may have been different.  There are two uses of &quot;robin&quot; for our bird from 1792.  One is &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=PUcMAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA59 rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;The American Geography&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, by Jedidiah Morse, who lists &quot;Fieldfare of Carolina, or Robin&quot; among American birds.  Morse is not what you&#039;d call reliable on natural history.  The other is &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=rzIBAAAAQAAJ&amp;pg=PA172&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;The History of New-Hampshire, volume III&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; (note hyphen), by Jeremy Belknap.  Many of his vernacular names look unscientific: &quot;hang bird&quot; (Orchard Oriole?), &quot;little hang-bird&quot; (Northern Parula?), &quot;tom teet&quot; (Black-capped Chickadee), and my favorite, &quot;humility&quot; (Ruddy Turnstone?).  My impression is that he got the names from some popular source, maybe conversation, and did his best to match scientific names to them.

There&#039;s also one from 1789: &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=LbgAAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA230&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Cultivation of the Vine&quot;&lt;/a&gt;, by Edward Antill, from &lt;i&gt;Transactions of the American Philosophical Society&lt;/i&gt;.  It&#039;s hard to tell how scientific he&#039;s trying to be about the birds that eat grapes.

I don&#039;t know where any of the authors was born, but it&#039;s pretty clear that Antill had been growing grapes in New Jersey for quite a while.

These sources are hardly proof of anything, but if &quot;robin&quot; really was a popular name, maybe the reason was more ignorance than nostalgia.  I think it&#039;s quite possible that many early English settlers had no idea what a Song Thrush or Fieldfare was.

By the way, I trust that for consistency you&#039;re going to propose that the AOU adopt Clay-colored Fieldfare, Rufous-backed Fieldfare, etc.  If you do that, I may propose changing them all to ouzels.  What do you like for the present American Robin--Northern Rufous-bellied Ouzel?

Jerry Friedman</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Jerry Friedman:</p>
<p>From what I can see on Google Books, the story may have been different.  There are two uses of &#8220;robin&#8221; for our bird from 1792.  One is <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=PUcMAAAAYAAJ&#038;pg=PA59 rel="nofollow"><i>The American Geography</i></a>, by Jedidiah Morse, who lists &#8220;Fieldfare of Carolina, or Robin&#8221; among American birds.  Morse is not what you&#8217;d call reliable on natural history.  The other is <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=rzIBAAAAQAAJ&#038;pg=PA172" rel="nofollow"><i>The History of New-Hampshire, volume III</i></a> (note hyphen), by Jeremy Belknap.  Many of his vernacular names look unscientific: &#8220;hang bird&#8221; (Orchard Oriole?), &#8220;little hang-bird&#8221; (Northern Parula?), &#8220;tom teet&#8221; (Black-capped Chickadee), and my favorite, &#8220;humility&#8221; (Ruddy Turnstone?).  My impression is that he got the names from some popular source, maybe conversation, and did his best to match scientific names to them.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also one from 1789: <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=LbgAAAAAYAAJ&#038;pg=PA230" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Cultivation of the Vine&#8221;</a>, by Edward Antill, from <i>Transactions of the American Philosophical Society</i>.  It&#8217;s hard to tell how scientific he&#8217;s trying to be about the birds that eat grapes.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where any of the authors was born, but it&#8217;s pretty clear that Antill had been growing grapes in New Jersey for quite a while.</p>
<p>These sources are hardly proof of anything, but if &#8220;robin&#8221; really was a popular name, maybe the reason was more ignorance than nostalgia.  I think it&#8217;s quite possible that many early English settlers had no idea what a Song Thrush or Fieldfare was.</p>
<p>By the way, I trust that for consistency you&#8217;re going to propose that the AOU adopt Clay-colored Fieldfare, Rufous-backed Fieldfare, etc.  If you do that, I may propose changing them all to ouzels.  What do you like for the present American Robin&#8211;Northern Rufous-bellied Ouzel?</p>
<p>Jerry Friedman</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Wright</title>
		<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-41841</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 18:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdaz.com/blog/?p=1783#comment-41841</guid>
		<description>You bet! Here&#039;s the information on submitting a proposal to the AOU: http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/index.php3</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You bet! Here&#8217;s the information on submitting a proposal to the AOU: <a href="http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/index.php3" rel="nofollow">http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/index.php3</a></p>
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		<title>By: thebirdersreport</title>
		<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-41840</link>
		<dc:creator>thebirdersreport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdaz.com/blog/?p=1783#comment-41840</guid>
		<description>Very interesting post Rick.  I enjoy learning birding history and how the terminology came about.  I, personally, am willing to go back to the &quot;fieldfare&quot; terminology.  I&#039;m sure it would be a much more controversial name these days than it was back then.  Should we start a campaign?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting post Rick.  I enjoy learning birding history and how the terminology came about.  I, personally, am willing to go back to the &#8220;fieldfare&#8221; terminology.  I&#8217;m sure it would be a much more controversial name these days than it was back then.  Should we start a campaign?</p>
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		<title>By: I and the Bird #85 - The Show Must Go On</title>
		<link>http://birdaz.com/blog/2008/09/11/when-is-a-robin-not-a-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-41835</link>
		<dc:creator>I and the Bird #85 - The Show Must Go On</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 19:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://birdaz.com/blog/?p=1783#comment-41835</guid>
		<description>[...] kind of Robin? R: I don&#8217;t follow your meaning. M: You know, like Rick Wright writes&#8230; when is a Robin not a Robin? Polysemy. R: A word or phrase with multiple, related meanings? M: Precisely. Now may I be so bold [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] kind of Robin? R: I don&#8217;t follow your meaning. M: You know, like Rick Wright writes&#8230; when is a Robin not a Robin? Polysemy. R: A word or phrase with multiple, related meanings? M: Precisely. Now may I be so bold [...]</p>
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